I believe this too.

“a huge question in my mind is at what point and under what pretext does the american military switch over into full annihalation mode (dresden | hiroshima | nagasaki).”

I think pretexts will be found to abound if needed; manipulation of public opinion seems relatively easy these days, especially when both main US parties have few distinctions in the foreign policy area; and its hard to see what impact independent journalism, assuming there was much of that around, would have given that mass media is so overwhemling.

It is still quite easy for the administration to manipulate virtually any bad news in Iraq into a surrogate argument for fighting the “war on terror”. And mass American opinion, when it senses that America’s back is against the wall, figuratively, is equally easily led to demonize virtually anyone. Yesterdays’s friend is today’s enemy based on short term judgment as to how they line up with the administration’s latest litmus test. It seems we can count little on the storied decency of the American populace to assure fair behavior whether with regard to Iraq policy, or Israeli policy. Rather I am afraid, as an observer of the scene for quite a long time, the American public is led around by the nose. Really, to be honest, the vast majority of people are virtually uninformed, and are swayed, if they voice an opinion at all, by the last or strongest sound bite. We are not in an enviable postion. Reason is having an increasingly tough time. Propaganda rules the day.

One hopes for a miracle.

thanks for your detailed comment. your point about the artificial distance between the military and financial support on one hand and responsibility for actions is well made and well taken.

that’s the problem with the whole situation. america only need put its foot down and the whole israeli-palestinian scenario could be resolved (somewhat) fairly, overnight.

so what to they do instead? invade iraq.

the end game is a big one. control all of the middle east – including europe’s oil supply apart from russia. hire african legions with no loyalty to persians/arabs/various europeans (only to the hand that pays them).

as oil gets tighter two countries have a stranglehold on supply. with the world bank and IMF, a freedom oil cartel and the world’s best equipped army and expendable foot soldiers, you would seem to have the world by the tail.

a plutocracy for perpetuity. or so it would seem.

almost as inalienable the divine right of kings they were flogging a few hundred years ago.

these things usually have a way of not working out though.

the would-be plutocrats are no more secure than the ancienne regime of france. already the american lower middle class becomes restive as each employment avenue is closed to it.

strangely enough the iraqis in the cradle of civilisation are perhaps the world’s best ally in guarding plurality and national freedoms before the military and corporate hegemony the PNAC maniacs are intent on installing.

they’ve seen enough tyranny to bite hard early.

a huge question in my mind is at what point and under what pretext does the american military switch over into full annihalation mode (dresden | hiroshima | nagasaki).

and how is the rest of the world react to that?

which is why your effort to educate and speak out is so important. people must gradually made conscious of the ill-conscience of their leaders.

the time will come where we all must act.

of course, the americans and their israeli client (vice-versa?) could have chosen to just settle with the palestinians, mended some bridges in the middle east, let the state department do some diplomatic work for the major corporations, focus on creating and selling technological innovation and won the peace in an ever more prosperous world.

but the zero sum game is more exciting. easier to understand – a classic board game, just like risk.

Thanks for your comments. I used to think I was missing something by having a common sense attitude, perhaps generalized, with regard to the apparent complexities of the Israli-Palestinian and Israeli-U.S. relationships. Kind of feeling I had no place tripping around in meta statements and the like. But I see, over and over again, that our (US) government policy, which should understand all the nuances of such relationships, rather, seems driven by simplistic, and I might say misguided and even crass motives of its own (from Bush on down). And I would dare say the same of the Israeli government, particularly under Sharon, a sad truth that hardly gains notice outside Israel. Neocon/AIPAC rhetoric and “theory”, with all its self-righteous and absolutist jargon is stil, IMHO, a disaster. Amazingly, my own opinions, however contrary to others, could not have less weight!

Along these lines, I must sadly echo your wish that Israel could have chosen a more moderate course. The current one has been a disaster.

There is a surreal character to the Israeli government’s behavior. On the one hand it has its hand out for American aid and political backing. Yet, whenever it chooses, vis a vis American disapproval of its actions, less and less necessary of late, it totally disavows any respect, much less obeisance to US opinion, and falls back on the shibboleth that Israel looks after itself and broaches no outside interference in its “defense” posture. To complee the absurdity, this seems acceptable to the US government.

This interesting but fallacious syllogism is implied in the declaration upthread that the only obligation Isreal has is to the citizens of Israel:

— Bush says Sharon is a “man of peace, worthy of mucho polictal/financial support, a partner in the roadmap

— Israel uses disproportionate force against Palestinians — states that Israel will act in its own interets and is not influenced by anyone else, creating patina of deniability for U.S.

— U.S./Bush says that it gives no green lights, that Israel has the right of self defense; that it has no influence on Israel; that the Palestinians should shape up and that Sharon is a “man of peace”, ad nauseaum.

i’ve been a bit of a sloppy barkeep (we are all missing billmon). thanks for the prod, dom.

tony, you seem totally disingenuous. let’s face it – the people in palestine never had any intention of doing jews past or present any harm. they were simple folk who were sold down the river by the british under whose protection they were supposed to live. your 2000 year old claim is entirely specious, as it would result in the wholesale resettlement of england (anglo-saxons and normans and celts), france (everyone), spain (moors), italy (romans and germanic tribes), hungary (magyars), russia (lithuanians, slavs, mongols).

and last but not least, would result in the removal of every single european from north american shores. or perhaps the north americans could all be herded down into new mexico.

and that my friends is what has happened to the palestinians. there must have been a better way to create the israeli state than took place. documents are still coming to light which reveal what actually took place.

to me the most important statement made here is this:

“There is a higher standard to hold oneself to than the least common denominator. Many Jews, I think, know this. It is pretty sorry to compare oneself and one’s behavior to those one considers deficient.”

thanks, DonS. that is exactly how it is i feel. who cares how different arab countries prosecute their laws and live their lives. those countries are those countries. they live under a different religion and with a different history.

israel is mainly made up of european jews, raised with a similar set of philosophical precepts as the rest of the western world.

to step back 2000 years to the biblical bloodletting between peoples (a train of thought which could serve to legitimise the abominations of the third reich ) is an astonishing leap.

and like SG and DonS, i had a much higher view of the jews and judaism than to anticipate that they would cruelly and cynically perpetrate these crimes on the palestinian people, rather than in some way reach out to them in a compromise which would save much bloodshed and decades of grief for all.

the short answer. yes to a wall now but at the 1967 boundaries. and yes the palestinians can have ports and control their own borders.

one can judge the character of a man or a people not by how he conducts himself when he is weak but by how he conducts himself when he is strong.

sadly, sharon and the current israeli government have let down jews everywhere (together with the american jewish lobby by their blind support of sharon’s actions).

they are conducting themselves like thieves and bullies and cutthroats.

under the circumstance it is no wonder that the suicide bombers keep coming.

what other choice to the palestinians have faced with such a dishonest partner?

israel has the guns and the tanks and the helicopters. use them, yes. but use them to enforce a fair solution and to give the palestinians something to lose.

people with something to lose and people with something to live for make lousy suicide bombers.

Dom,

I was talking to Ami.

Your comments seem more directed to Alec, not
me, since he posted the article you seem to be responding to.

Hard to see how you attribute “malice” to me; that seems like a stretch from the evidence at hand.

Yes, certainly, do not spend too much of your time in discussions simply for the sake of arguing — unless you enjoy that.

An answer to any of my points would have done. I will take your silence for a repetition of what you said to Ami, yes?

“I learned a long time ago that it is impossible to have a discussion where minds are closed. No intention to insult. I wish you all the best.”

And I too will take away this lesson. You have malice.

When the UN decided that the British mandate should be divided into three parts (a Jewish, an Arab and an international part), all the neighbouring Arab countries rejected this decision and invaded the declared State of Israel with the avowed aim of wiping it (and its Jewish inhabitants) from the face of the earth.

They didn’t succeed then, they didn’t succeed with the many murderous incursions up till now and, notwithstanding the lopsided arguments of moral equivalence from “friends of the Jews” like you, the resolve of Israel and its true friends will ensure they won’t succeed in the future.

Not only should the Arabs realise that peaceful relations is the way to a successful future, but they must disown the terrorists in their midst.

I learned a long time ago that it is impossible to have a discussion where minds are closed. No intention to insult. I wish you all the best.